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Author Topic: Tzit tzit (for women?)  (Read 15462 times)
Peninnah
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« on: March 09, 2009, 01:39:44 PM »

Hi all,

What does everyone else think about the commandment for the 'children of Israel' to wear the tassels with a thread of blue on the four corners of their garments?  Does that include women?

~Peninnah
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dumbrod
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« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2009, 03:46:43 PM »

I definitely do think it is for women.  It says the "children" not just the "men".

I did hear a teaching recently saying that women in synagogue wouldn't be caught wearing a tallit because that is considered a man's garment.  I can definitely see this, but the command is not for tallits, but rather tzitzits. 

I am currently trying to get my wife to wear them.  She agrees that she should because there is no scripture saying just men.  I told her that if we go around preaching to follow every word of the Father's and to do all that pertains to us that we are hypocrites if she is not wearing them.  She feels uncomfortable because she thinks it will look silly, but I think they look neat and is one of the preferred accessories Yah wants us to wear on our wardrobe!  I did feel silly at first when I started wearing them because I had never seen ANYONE wear them before and I was the lone duck.  I don't think one person asked me what they were in the first 3 years that I wore them.  And only now has 3 people asked in 5 years:  My mom, my sister, and one other guy.

Always remember, it's more important what Yah thinks than man.

I would like to know if any women in here do wear them.  I've personally never seen one wear them, but I'm not around many messianic women ever.

« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 03:49:32 PM by dumbrod » Logged
Masters
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« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2009, 04:19:48 PM »

Shalom... Bill Cloud wears his on the inside... They are for you- not others...

Bye...

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Peninnah
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« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2009, 04:23:51 PM »

Yes, I wear them.  Not always on the outside of my clothes, it depends on what I'm wearing.  On a one piece dress without a jacket, I wouldn't know where to put them.  However, I'm in the process of making "buttonholes" on the waistbands of all my pants and skirts to loop them through.  Also on the bottoms of jackets and blouses.  I was pinning them on, but the pins seem to wear them out faster than looping them through a hole.  Sometimes I wear them under my clothes.  Maybe that's a personal choice.

I have two female friends who also wear them most of the time.  One in particular feels very strongly that this is a commandment that is to be obeyed, not just glossed over.  I don't think anyone has asked any of us what they are for.

~Peninnah
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mdmfortorah
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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2009, 04:36:27 PM »

It is a commandment for the children -- men and women -- I agree -- even maybe children of age? 

Mike and I both have a set; I don't really have any clothes that they go on very well.  I suggested Mike wear his on his belt loops on his jeans.  He hasn't started wearing them yet, cause he's afraid people will ask him scriptural questions he cannot answer, and scripture tells us to be ready to answer the questions -- he's trying to learn more first for that responsibility.  I'll tell him that you've had very few people comment on yours DR, and he'll probably start wearing them.

I clipped mine to my purse that goes everywhere with me.  We did hear a teaching this weekend however, about the tallit being a men's garment.  The teacher suggested women do not use tallits, but use a pretty scarf -- like one of those long rectangular ones that come in all kinds of colors and are definitely feminine, and the tzitzit could be clipped on the four corners hanging down.  (like on a tallit)  If you are like me and wear jeans and tshirts most of the time, maybe you could make a scarf thing out of a decorator denim?

Do any of you have such a thing as a "four cornered garmet"?  I don't.  And if they are for our remembrance, would you put them in back, too, where you couldn't even see them? 
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dumbrod
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2009, 09:04:27 PM »

I'm against wearing them on the inside of clothes.  The reason being:

Num 15:39 “And it shall be to you for a tzitzit, and you shall see it, and shall remember all the commands of יהוה and shall do them, and not search after your own heart and your own eyes after which you went whoring,
Num 15:40 so that you remember, and shall do all My commands, and be set-apart unto your Elohim.


I don't think we are just to see it when we go to the bathroom, haha.  And how is our witness when we proclaim to follow torah but the evidence is not seen? Here's another thought:

Zec 8:23 “Thus said יהוה of hosts, ‘In those days ten men from all languages of the nations take hold, yea, they shall take hold of the edge of the garment of a man, a Yehuḏite, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that Elohim is with you.” ’ ” Footnote: 1John 4:22.

I think this prophecy is that WE who are true jews (Rom 2:29) will teach those 10 men (returning ephraim out of christianity) the commandments.  Now taking hold of the garment is most likely a figure of speech, but I think if we figuratively "hide" our commandments on the inside and not let our light (commandment keeping) shine before men, then how will these 10 men know who to turn to?  A thought at least...


Also, in regards to the 4 corner thing:

Deu 22:12 “Make tassels on the four corners of the garment with which you cover yourself.

What else has four corners:

Isa 11:12 And He shall raise a banner for the nations, and gather the outcasts of Yisra’ĕl, and assemble the dispersed of Yehuḏah from the four corners of the earth.

If the earth is round and has corners, couldn't we extrapolate our round waists to have four corners?  The point of having them also behind us?  We could spiritualize that we are surrounded by the commandments and Yah is not only our lead but our rear guard. (Isa 52:12)

I personally think they are not only for us personally, but are to be seen, especially in this day by others.  I know the commandment doesn't say this, but I think it can definitely be inferred from other passages.  When I see a man wearing these I know who this man is and what he stands for.  If he hides them or decides he doesn't need to wear them then my brother is still hidden from me.  We do need to not strut them like the pharisees did and try to earn the accolades of man or a sense of self righteousness, but we do have to keep the command and remember that we are always in his presence.  I personally get reminded that since my tzitzits are seen by others that I am held to a higher standard and must not do wrong and destroy my witness.  If someone knows what they mean and sees me wearing them, and at the same time sees me sin, then I am nothing but a hypocrite. 

(Sorry, didn't mean to get preachy, but I've thought on this commandment many-a-moon.  haha)

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Masters
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« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2009, 06:42:51 PM »

Humm... Numbers 15:39 says... and YOU shall see it... what does the word you mean to U?

Shalom...

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dumbrod
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« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2009, 11:19:32 AM »

In the Beit Yacov room on shabbat, somehow tzitzit came up and Mark said that the command was for ALL of YOU to see them.  So when anyone sees them, they are to remember the commandments.

Going back to Num 15, this thought does make sense.  Who was the commandment given to:  Israel.  Who is supposed to remember the commandments when they see the tzitzits:  Israel.

So this may be an answer for wearing a tzitzit behind you.  They aren't necessarily just for you to see, but also your brother.  Heck, we all need reminders sometimes.  I think if more people wore them it would cause us to remember we are a set-apart people and those wearing them are trying to obey as well.  This may lead to a society that was more decent because everyone would have a higher standard for themselves and for each other.
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camickey
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« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2009, 06:46:10 PM »

I wear Tzit Tzit on all of my clothing when I go out, have for about one year.  I have udnerstood it to mean all of us as the "children of Israel".  I know what you mean about that corners thing, I do like the comparison to the earth having four corners. Smiley  I have some with small colored beads that are longer, I wear them when I wear my skirts.  Otherwise, I have ones made from cotton strings, white and blue, and wear them daily.  I feel "undressed" now without them.  My "everyday" TzitTzit hand barely longer than my shirts, usually.  I also wear them in two's at my waist, eltiher with pins or belt loops.  I agree, they are a reminder for us and a witness to others.  When the Word says, (I can only parahrase here), that in the last days ten men will hang on to the corners of a Jew's garment, that refers to the Tzit Tzit, representing the knowledge of Torah and, so, a clear vision of people looking for those who they recognize as those who know what to do in the chaos which will ensue. 
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dumbrod
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« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2009, 10:28:50 PM »

This discussion came up in our study group last shabbat (I didn't bring it up).  I think after talking it through everyone was convicted of the need to wear them all the time (both men and women).  We'll see how it works out...

Thanks for sharing your obedience to the commandment camickey.  I pray it encourages others to do likewise. 
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dumbrod
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« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2009, 11:36:51 PM »

YES Rey.  I think they also have become a "sign" to us to who are brothers and sisters are.  Nobody else in this world seems to know what they are so it may be the secret handshake of the future!   Cool
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Connies Nic
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« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2009, 08:07:37 PM »

I made myself a set of tzit tzit several years ago along with a four cornered "belt" to attach them to. I wore this only on shabbat when no one was around to see me.   :Smiley When I met a small family group of torah observant believers who had no clue what that was about I let them each have one during a "service" at their home. They didn't give them back! So for a long time I didn't wear tzit tzit. Then I felt convicted, so I made myself another set using a different pattern. I attached those to my bra straps so I could wear them to work, where I would not have been permitted to wear them outside my clothes. (For awhile I had them on my belt loops with my shirt over them, but then I was reprimanded--shirts were to be tucked in!) I never let my husband see them. Then I decided that didn't feel right, unholy, so I put the tzit tzit away again. A few months ago I started wearing the tzit tzit attached to my jeans' belt loops and stopped worrying whether hubby saw them or not. I'm no longer at work so no problems there. One day hubby almost asked me what they were, then caught himself.  Grin I know for a fact he had seen them on a video of Brad Scott, so he knows it's a Messianic thing but probably nothing more than that.

I've been thinking of making some new tzit tzit that I could attach to a collar or something. Since there doesn't seem to be any rule about how they have to be made (except for the blue cord), my idea is to embroider the edges of something (maybe an attachable collar or a scarf) with tzit tzit at the corners--all in one piece, not detachable. Don't know, still chewing on that...

« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 08:10:42 PM by Connies Nic » Logged
dumbrod
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« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2009, 11:52:15 PM »

Hey Connie, glad you made it here  Cool

My wife had a baby shower today.  As she was going out the door she asked me where the scriptures were for tzitzit in case she was asked.  She has just recently started wearing them and is also a bit uncomfortable.  I didn't think anyone would ask her, because as I said in my experience, not many asked me.

Well she got home and said EVERYONE asked her about them, haha.  I asked her what she told them and she said that they are commanded of the children of Israel to wear.  I asked what they said to this and they just said, "Oh".   Cheesy

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lfree
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« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2009, 11:16:42 AM »

Shalom all.  I am a woman and I started wearing Tzitzits as soon as I read the commandment.  I didn't know there was a question about whether it was for men and women, I just did it.  I'm glad I did.  It just makes me feel as though I am doing what my Father asked and makes me feel a bit closer to Him.  And, it is a great reminder to keep the Commandments!

I also now look at people's clothing to see if anyone else wears them so I can hopefully find another child of Israel around here to get to know.  So far, no. 

I've had a few people ask me about them and I just tell them.  Most have said "oh" but a few said they would have to check their Bible to see if this is true, which I thought was a good thing.  So perhaps it is a witnessing tool as well.

I don't care what people think of them, only that I am obeying a commandment.  No one has reacted negatively so far, and if they did, I don't think it would bother me.

 
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Masters
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« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2009, 02:28:24 PM »

Shalom... Another example of why we need to know what was written in the Hebrew... In Hebrew it implys both male and female gender... Source 4 this info... Brad Scott, WildBranch Ministry...

Blessings...
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