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dumbrod
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« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2017, 04:42:52 PM »

I'm going to have to disagree a bit on this.  I don't think time is the requirement for the return (although prophetically time wise yes).  What is required to be regathered is REPENTANCE.  It comes first, not second:

Deu 30:1  “And it shall be, when all these words come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you shall bring them back to your heart among all the gentiles where יהוה your Elohim drives you,
Deu 30:2  and shall turn back to יהוה your Elohim and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your being, you and your children,
Deu 30:3  then יהוה your Elohim shall turn back your captivity, and shall have compassion on you, and He shall turn back and gather you from all the peoples where יהוה your Elohim has scattered you.

After this repentance, the captivity can be overturned and the new covenant be instituted with the spirit, heart, and body.

We are to judge all things according to scripture, and just because someone says they're "jewish" doesn't give them a free pass to be wicked and claim to be righteous.  We see over and over it is the inside that counts and not the outside or bloodlines.  Israel is still an atheist state with abominations within it.  I don't see repentance yet and thus I am anti-zionist until that happens.  Wayyyy to much baggage, lies, and subterfuge to hold it up as set apart.  I personally see this as an end-time deception.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2017, 07:24:22 PM by dumbrod » Logged
James1:27
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« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2017, 11:10:47 PM »

I'm going to have to disagree a bit on this.  I don't think time is the requirement for the return (although prophetically time wise yes).  What is required to be regathered is REPENTANCE.  It comes first, not second:

I agree with you, repentance must come first. This is what Yeshua taught when He came for the lost sheep of Israel:

Mat_3:2  And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat_4:17  From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mar_1:15  And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mar_6:12  And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Luk_13:3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk_13:5  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Repent
G3340
μετανοέω
metanoeō
met-an-o-eh'-o
From G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, that is, reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.

But repentance isn’t the same thing as being in covenant with YHWH. Repentance means to think differently, reconsider, to turn back to YHWH.  It is a first step. The dispersed people of the House of Israel are out of covenant. They are lost sheep who have to learn His ways.

We all have a story of how we came to hear our shepherd. It took steps.

For me, I called out for spiritual truth. And He heard me. I was alone but I found Torah sites on the Internet to lead me. I began to study and learn. I knew we are no longer in Covenant but I wanted to follow His instructions. I started to keep Sabbath, eat clean foods, and observe His Holy days. I threw out the pagan holiday decorations, stopped observing Christian Holidays, and dealt with the anguish of family members over these acts. I learned that many of the things I did in my youth were sins, I cried about this, I asked for forgiveness and for mercy. And He heard me. I asked for teachers. And He heard me. This is when I found WTZ and when I really started to learn His ways. I am so grateful to you, Masters, Rob, and Clearvoice. You have been my teachers. You have no idea of your worth to lurkers. I joined WTZ and learned more by reasoning. It was a process. I am so grateful.

Likewise, the restoration will involve a process. He is so very patient and merciful. He has a plan for the restoration and He told us through His prophets.

From Deuteronomy:

There were blessings for keeping the words of the covenant.
Deu 29:1  These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
Deu 29:9  Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do.

The people fell into idolatry as prophesied. The land was cursed and the people dispersed:
Deu 29:25  Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:
Deu 29:26  For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them:
Deu 29:27  And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:

The steps for redemption and restoration are outlined:

1st step: Recalling/remembering
Deu 30:1  And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2nd step: Hear/obey His voice. Repentance/turn back to Elohim.
Deu 30:2  And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3rd step: His compassion/mercy. Regathering/return to His land.
Deu 30:3  That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Deu 30:4  If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Deu 30:5  And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

4th step: Circumcision of the heart. A New Covenant. Life.
Deu 30:6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

5th step: Curses on those who have persecuted His people.
Deu 30:7  And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.

6th step: DO ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS
Deu 30:8  And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

7th step: Blessings for His people.
Deu 30:9  And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:

As written in Ezekiel:

1st step: Regather.
Eze 11:17  Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

2nd step: Removal of detestable things and abominations.
Eze 11:18  And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.

3rd step: Circumcision of the heart. A New Covenant.
Eze 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

4th step: WALK IN HIS STATUTES, AND KEEP HIS ORDINANCES. Life.
Eze 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

5th step: Those not keeping statutes will be dealt with. Death.
Eze 11:21  But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.

We are to judge all things according to scripture

Yes, I agree we are to judge all things according to scripture.  Scripture clearly says that the regathering comes before the New Covenant and the regathering comes before the requirement to keep His statutes and ordinances.  If you can show me scripture that says otherwise, I would appreciate it.

just because someone says they're "jewish" doesn't give them a free pass to be wicked and claim to be righteous.  We see over and over it is the inside that counts and not the outside or bloodlines. 

Yes, I agree that it is what is on the inside that counts and not the outside or bloodlines.

Israel is still an atheist state with abominations within it.  I don't see repentance yet and thus I am anti-zionist until that happens.  Wayyyy to much baggage, lies, and subterfuge to hold it up as set apart. 

You are throwing out the baby with the bathwater here. Just because there is a percentage of apostate people of Jewish descent residing in the land does not justify dismissing what is clearly the regathering of Judah as outlined in scripture. As pointed out up-thread, Torah observing people reside in the state of Israel today.

I personally see this as an end-time deception.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. The end-time deception is that Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the same Elohim. This is how Islam will be established as the One World Religion. Aided and abetted by Christian Dispensational theology promoting a false narrative that some future antichrist will appear and erect a abomination of desolation in a future 3rd Temple on the Temple mount. This is while everyone overlooks the antichrist abomination of desolation currently erected and standing in the Holy place today.  Also aided and abetted by the anti-Zionists pushing the lie that the state of Israel is not legitimate and diminishing  our Elohim and His prophets.
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Rob
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« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2017, 09:51:38 AM »

Posted by: James1:27 >>>

"
We all have a story of how we came to hear our shepherd. It took steps.
For me, I called out for spiritual truth. And He heard me. I was alone but I found Torah sites on the Internet to lead me. I began to study and learn. I knew we are no longer in Covenant but I wanted to follow His instructions. I started to keep Sabbath, eat clean foods, and observe His Holy days. I threw out the pagan holiday decorations, stopped observing Christian Holidays, and dealt with the anguish of family members over these acts. I learned that many of the things I did in my youth were sins, I cried about this, I asked for forgiveness and for mercy. And He heard me. I asked for teachers. And He heard me. This is when I found WTZ and when I really started to learn His ways. I am so grateful to you, Masters, Rob, and Clearvoice. You have been my teachers. You have no idea of your worth to lurkers. I joined WTZ and learned more by reasoning. It was a process. I am so grateful..."

Thank you so kindly for your gratefulness, James1:27

Myself and my wife have found a "new" teacher on WTZ which we ABSOLUTELY love and his name is Steve Berkson.  After many many years we find Steve to be dishing out "meat".

And he does not mince with words, he says it like it should be said !  He is a true Prophet(one who speaks our Fathers Word with authority) , a truly anointed appointed !

Shalom to you and love from a brother and sister here from South Africa.
 Kiss

« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 09:58:31 AM by Rob » Logged

1Th 5:4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief.
Joh 8:42 If God were your father, you would love me....If you love me, keep my commandments.
1Jn 2:4 One who says, “I know him,” and does not keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him
James1:27
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« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2017, 09:23:34 PM »

Myself and my wife have found a "new" teacher on WTZ which we ABSOLUTELY love and his name is Steve Berkson.  After many many years we find Steve to be dishing out "meat".

And he does not mince with words, he says it like it should be said !  He is a true Prophet(one who speaks our Fathers Word with authority) , a truly anointed appointed !

Shalom to you and love from a brother and sister here from South Africa.
 Kiss

Thanks Rob, I will check him out.

I found this lengthy web article that thoroughly addresses many of the anti-Zionist arguments that I have heard about Israel (such as The Rothschild involvement in the formation of the state, the claim of  Khazar decent, Israel as an apartheid state, Israeli Settlements are the Barrier to Peace, and much more) and thought I would share.

http://www.omegashock.com/2017/03/24/the-truth-about-israel/
The Truth About Israel
March 24, 2017 by John Little - OmegaShock.com

The author is a Christian and he also has published a book (Ezekielsfire) about an EMP/solar flare end time scenario similar to what our WTZ member mckerras has written about. I am not endorsing his eschatological view but this is one of the best anti-Zionist rebuttals I have read (of course I think scripture is pretty clear that the state of Israel is legit and we don't need mans interpretation). I have been exploring his website “omegashock” and "Ezekielsfire" websites and will share any pearls I find. I think I will be studying Ezekiel this Shabbat if anyone wants to share favorite links or thoughts, I would appreciate it.
 
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dumbrod
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« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2017, 08:05:47 AM »

I also am a Steve Berkson fan.  I found him on Hebrew Nation Radio and he really can cut to the truth of things.

Its interesting, this week I've been pretty busy and have been listening to quite a few shows.  One of them was with two survivors of the USS Liberty (which that omegashock article talks about).  They said that Israel absolutely knew it was an american ship and they ghosted them for a very long time, flew over many times to waving americans, and even intercepted communications of Israel talking about that american ship.  They still weren't quite sure why they were bombed by Israel, but it was a gruesome story they gave, but fortunately sailed back over 1000 miles to safety.  Its pretty amazing they weren't sunk.

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dumbrod
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« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2017, 10:04:16 PM »

This year an interview came out with Jacob Rothschild about the balfour declaration and their involvement in it.  The video is at the end of the article:

http://yournewswire.com/lord-rothschild-israel/
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James1:27
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« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2017, 05:02:50 PM »


Myself and my wife have found a "new" teacher on WTZ which we ABSOLUTELY love and his name is Steve Berkson.  After many many years we find Steve to be dishing out "meat".

And he does not mince with words, he says it like it should be said !  He is a true Prophet(one who speaks our Fathers Word with authority) , a truly anointed appointed !


Thanks again, Rob. I listened to a program today in which he was a guest. Excellent. I will post a summary and a link about it in under “scripture studies”. 


I also am a Steve Berkson fan.  I found him on Hebrew Nation Radio and he really can cut to the truth of things.


I agree. He is very truthful and does not mince words at all.

This year an interview came out with Jacob Rothschild about the balfour declaration and their involvement in it.  The video is at the end of the article:

http://yournewswire.com/lord-rothschild-israel/

I found this article very informative:
In Defense of Israel
“This was written in response to Matthew Nolan’s Toldot parsha teaching that he used as a platform to demonize Israel. “

http://www.hezekiyahhaas.com/uploads/3/0/0/1/3001861/_____________________________________jfy_response_to_nolans_toldot_teaching_against_israel_website_version_final_7-24-2014.pdf

The author discusses how Elohim uses secular and often evil forces as His puppets in bringing about His will.

He also points out prophecies about the Land that have been fulfilled since the state of Israel was formed:
The nation would be born in a day, and it was.
The Jews would return to the Land from the dispersion, from the North and then the South, and they did. First the Europeans and Russian Jews in the North, and then the Ethiopian Jews in the South returned.
Jews would be in the Land without a king and without a prophet, and they are.
When the Jews returned, the desert would blossom. It has.   
When the Jews returned, a land barren of trees would have forest. It has.
The land would be fertile and abundant. It is. Israel is a major food supplier for all of Europe.
When the Jews returned, the mountains would drip with sweet wine. It has. The mountains in Galilee and Carmel are covered with vineyards and wineries.
A pure language of Hebrew would be restored to the people. It has.
That the shekel would be restored, and it has.
That all but 3 cities would be rebuilt and be given their original names. They have.
The 3 cities that Yeshua said would not be rebuilt (Bethsaida, Chorazin, and Capernaum) have not been rebuilt.
Jerusalem would become a burdensome stone. It has.

The abundance of the land after the formation of the state of Israel:
Made in Israel: Agriculture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxxYmn3HpDU
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dumbrod
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« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2017, 08:20:49 PM »

Isa 66:8  “Who has heard the like of this? Who has seen the like of these? Is a land brought forth in one day? Is a nation born at once? For as soon as Tsiyon laboured, she gave birth to her children.
Isa 66:12  For thus said יהוה, “See, I am extending peace to her like a river, and the esteem of the gentiles like a flowing stream. And you shall feed; you shall be carried on the side, and be fondled on her knees.

If this first verse was fulfilled in 1948, then why wasn't the next one?  There are several interpretations of this scripture which differ from common state of israel fulfillment explanation.  Below is a good article of one of these which equates it to new Jerusalem.  If you read the whole of chapter 66 then the nation state doesn't quite seem to fit and more refers to the second coming when the true return takes place.

https://adammaarschalk.com/2014/04/18/galatians-4-shows-that-isaiah-66-is-not-about-modern-israel/
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James1:27
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« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2017, 01:47:04 PM »

Isa 66:8  “Who has heard the like of this? Who has seen the like of these? Is a land brought forth in one day? Is a nation born at once? For as soon as Tsiyon laboured, she gave birth to her children.
Isa 66:12  For thus said יהוה, “See, I am extending peace to her like a river, and the esteem of the gentiles like a flowing stream. And you shall feed; you shall be carried on the side, and be fondled on her knees.

If this first verse was fulfilled in 1948, then why wasn't the next one?  There are several interpretations of this scripture which differ from common state of israel fulfillment explanation.  Below is a good article of one of these which equates it to new Jerusalem.  If you read the whole of chapter 66 then the nation state doesn't quite seem to fit and more refers to the second coming when the true return takes place.

https://adammaarschalk.com/2014/04/18/galatians-4-shows-that-isaiah-66-is-not-about-modern-israel/

Did you read the article you linked?

He says that Isa 66:8 refers to the formation of the Christian church, that the Christian nation was formed on the day of Pentecost, and that Gal 4 proves this:

“Ironically, Isaiah 66 does not speak of the restoration of earthly Jerusalem into the hands of mostly unbelieving Jews in 1948. Rather, it mirrors the taking away of the earthly kingdom from unfaithful Israel (in 70 AD), and the giving of the heavenly kingdom to God’s holy nation, the Church, just as Jesus predicted (Matthew 21:43-44; cf. Daniel 7:18, 22, 27). It speaks of the establishment of the new Jerusalem for the bride of Christ, and the dissolving of the old covenant in favor of the new covenant (which was established at the cross). This is the point of both Isaiah and Paul.”

Christians? Most Christians I know eat pork. I guess he didn’t read what Isa 66:17 says about pig eaters:

Isa 66:16  For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Isa 66:17  They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

Consumed by fire. Yikes.

Or what Isa 65:4 says about pig eaters:
 
Isa 65:3  A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
Isa 65:4  Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
Isa 65:5  Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

They provoke Him. To His face.

Most Christians I know don't follow Torah and they worship on Sunday. What does scripture say about these people?

Pro 28:9  He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Their prayers an abomination. He does not hear them.

Delusional replacement theology.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 01:50:54 PM by James1:27 » Logged
dumbrod
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« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2017, 06:49:22 PM »

We could discredit about everyone if tried hard enough including those in our own belief.  Most will read talmud and what-not without blinking an eye and think they are spiritually enlightened by blind guides. 

The author of the article was not a replacement theologist if you looked further at his other articles.  He was saying the church (what we would call the kahol) was founded at shavuot with the outpouring of the spirit.  I'm not sure if I agree, but this does make some sense.  The word "nation" in verse 8 has other meanings which is most often translated "people".  If this is the correct usage, then I can see this fitting. 

Again, what fits most in the passage is at the return of the Messiah these fulfillments take place. 
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James1:27
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« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2017, 09:58:29 PM »

We could discredit about everyone if tried hard enough including those in our own belief.  Most will read talmud and what-not without blinking an eye and think they are spiritually enlightened by blind guides. 

The author of the article was not a replacement theologist if you looked further at his other articles.  He was saying the church (what we would call the kahol) was founded at shavuot with the outpouring of the spirit.  I'm not sure if I agree, but this does make some sense.  The word "nation" in verse 8 has other meanings which is most often translated "people".  If this is the correct usage, then I can see this fitting. 

Again, what fits most in the passage is at the return of the Messiah these fulfillments take place. 


He is a full preterist.
He believes Revelation has been fulfilled: “Dive into a chapter-by-chapter study of how the book of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century AD.”
He writes: “The Beast of Revelation Was Zealot-Led Israel.”
He does believe in Replacement Theology. Here is a quote from his article “Who Are God’s Chosen People and Why Are They Chosen?”
“The people of Israel were to make known the path to eternal life (faith in the coming Messiah) to the nations surrounding them, but this often did not happen. The kingdom was eventually taken away from faithless Israel, as Jesus prophesied (Matthew 21:43, cf. Matt. 22:1-14), and given to “a people producing its fruits” (clearly the Church, those who belong to Christ and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit who enables us to produce spiritual fruit).”
https://adammaarschalk.com

My intent is not to discredit someone by pointing out their theological beliefs. It is to consider the validity of their position. Personally, I value Torah based teachings over others.


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dumbrod
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« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2017, 10:27:43 PM »

I wasn't trying to promote everything this guy teaches by any means, I'm only using his one article to show there are more viewpoints out there on Is 66:8 than the zionist one.  When read in context I think this guy lines up closer in his article than those promoting a faithless or repentless return despite how many torah teachers proclaim it.  We can't take verses out of context and proclaim them fulfilled.  That chapter sounds more like events in the "Day of YHVH"
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« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2017, 05:14:37 PM »


Isaiah 66:7-9 interpretation by a Torah teacher:

Isaiah 66
Published on Mar 21, 2016
Beit Yeshua Torah Assembly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KaXnq9qPVo&t=669s

Notes for those who do not get Youtube (I am paraphrasing):

Isa 66:7  Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

Before Jerusalem travailed, she gave birth. This verse refers to Jerusalem first giving birth to Messiah before it’s destruction by the Romans as told of in Dan 9:26:

Dan 9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And in Rev 12:5-6:
Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 12:5  Tells of the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Messiah and Rev 12:6  tells of the scattering of people after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Isa 66:8-9 tells of the rebirth of Jerusalem:

Isa 66:8  Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
Isa 66:9  Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

After the difficulty, turmoil, and travail, He will bring forth, deliver His people to Jerusalem.

Beit Yeshua Torah Assembly
http://beityeshua.com/


Although I don’t agree with everything in this article, this Christian author puts forth a strong argument that the modern State of Israel has fulfilled prophesy that foretells of secular Jews returning to the land, that their immigration occurs in stages, through persecution. And Israel must be in the land before the Day of the Lord:

Is the Modern State of Israel a Fulfillment of Prophecy? Dr. Michael Rydelnik
Professor of Jewish Studies
Moody Bible Institute
http://www.boroughparksymposium.com/papers2014/Topic_1_Michael_Rydelnik_Main_Paper.pdf

My notes:

“Critics of Biblical prophecy that complain that the state of Israel has been reborn as a secular state composed of secular or unbelieving Jewish people…. should recognize that the prophets foretold a Jewish return to the land in unbelief. ...Ezekiel predicted an eschatological regathering of Jewish people from dispersion around the word while they were still in a state of unbelief “:

Eze 36:24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
 
Eze 20:34  And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

“Having regathered the Jewish people back to Israel before the Tribulation while they are yet in unbelief, the Lord promises to drive some who have returned out to the wilderness to experience His judgment. This is the time when the Lord brings Israel ‘under the rod’ of discipline.”:

Eze 20:35  And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
Eze 20:36  Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 20:37  And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant.
Eye 20:38  And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

“Only after the regathering and discipline of Israel, God will bring about Israel’s ultimate spiritual restoration. Having purged the rebels, the Lord promises to bring the nation ‘under the bond of the covenant,’ referring to the New Covenant”:
 
Eze 36:24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

The Bible predicts that Israel would return to the land of Israel in stages:

“In the vision of the dry bones, Ezekiel saw the bones come to life in stages: first sinews on the bones; then flesh; then skin; and finally, the breath of life. God tells Ezekiel that ‘these bones are the whole house of Israel ‘ and that their restoration is a picture of the way God will bring them “into the land of Israel” The gradual return to life of the bones reveals that the regathering of Israel is not to be construed as an episode that will occur instantaneously, in one single event. Rather, it is a process.”

Eze 37:11  Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
Eze 37:12  Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

“In this passage, the dry bones represent Israel in exile, without any hope. The process of the bones coming together with sinew, flesh, and skin likely refers to the waves of immigration before Israel’s rebirth. This is precisely how the Jewish people have returned to the land of Israel. There were the five separate aliyot (immigration waves), from 1881 to1939, when Jewish people from Europe returned to the Promised Land. Moreover, after the birth of Israel in 1948, some one million European Jewish survivors of the Holocaust came to Israel. Not long after that, some 800,000 Jewish people were driven from the Arab world and came home to the land of Israel. More recently, in the 1990s, some 1 1⁄2 million Jewish people fled the former Soviet Union and immigrated to Israel. These immigration waves demonstrate that the Jewish people have indeed returned in stages.”

“The body without breath represents unbelieving Israel today, restored to the land but not yet spiritually regenerated”

“The Bible predicts that Israel would return to her land through persecution….God speaks through Jeremiah, detailing the means He will use— persecution—to bring His people back to their land. When God returned the Jewish people from Babylon, He used the decree of Cyrus. The Persian king aided those who returned and the return was free and peaceful. In contrast, Jer 16:16 uses metaphors of persecution to describe the return to the land. First, God will use “fishermen [who] will fish for them,” catching them against their will. Second, God will bring the Jewish people back with “many hunters, and they will hunt them down on every mountain and hill and out of the clefts of the rocks,” a terrifying image of pursuit and persecution. …The primary motivation for return to the land of Israel has been anti-Jewish persecution."

“Fourth, the Bible predicts that Israel would return to the land to set the stage for end- time events. “

Since “Israel has returned in unbelief, in stages, through persecution, and before the advent of the Day of the Lord, it is likely that the modern the State of Israel fulfills the predictions of the ancient Hebrew prophets.”

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dumbrod
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« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2017, 07:27:35 PM »

Not to be contentious, but here are some of my thoughts with an alternate view:

Your first teacher says that verse 7 is about Yeshua, and then over 1900 years pass between that and the next verse?  That sounds like trying to fit a square into a round hole like many prophecy teachers do (especially with daniel's last week).  The better understanding of these verses in my view is as follows:

Isaiah talks about cyrus here:

    Isa 44:28  That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
    Isa 45:1  Thus saith YHVH to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
    Isa 45:13  “I have stirred him up in righteousness, and all his ways I make straight. He builds My city and lets My exiles go, not for price nor reward,” declares יהוה of hosts.

And keep following the thought:

    Isa 66:7  Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. (Cyrus?)
    Isa 66:8  Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
    Isa 66:9  Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

Following what happened in history and staying within the narrative of Isaiah would show that the fulfillment happened with the return from the babylonian captivity.

     Isa 44:26  That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:


As for your second teacher I would say all of the thoughts are conjecture and would make a good sermon according to your notes.  I don't see any real proofs in it to state that the regathering takes place before the 2nd coming.  It is also not factoring in the repentance required first in Deu 30.  The rebels have not been purged out yet the verses indicate he will deal with us in the wilderness before bringing us into the land.  After that the new covenant will be in full effect and the real exodus will happen which I see at the 2nd coming.  Also, only 1 tribe is being dealt with today.  Where are the other 11 at?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 07:51:06 PM by dumbrod » Logged
James1:27
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« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2017, 02:16:33 PM »

Not to be contentious, but here are some of my thoughts with an alternate view:

Your first teacher says that verse 7 is about Yeshua, and then over 1900 years pass between that and the next verse?  That sounds like trying to fit a square into a round hole like many prophecy teachers do (especially with daniel's last week).  The better understanding of these verses in my view is as follows:

Isaiah talks about cyrus here:

    Isa 44:28  That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
    Isa 45:1  Thus saith YHVH to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
    Isa 45:13  “I have stirred him up in righteousness, and all his ways I make straight. He builds My city and lets My exiles go, not for price nor reward,” declares יהוה of hosts.

And keep following the thought:

    Isa 66:7  Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. (Cyrus?)
    Isa 66:8  Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
    Isa 66:9  Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

Following what happened in history and staying within the narrative of Isaiah would show that the fulfillment happened with the return from the babylonian captivity.


The main reason that I don’t think Isaiah is limited to prophesy of the return from the Babylonian captivity is what Yeshua said when He began his public ministry:

From the NOG Bible:

Luk 4:14  Yeshua returned to Galilee. The power of the Spirit was with him, and the news about him spread throughout the surrounding country.
15 He taught in the synagogues, and everyone praised him.
16 Then Yeshua came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. As usual he went into the synagogue on the day of worship. He stood up to read the lesson.
17 The attendant gave him the book of the prophet Isaiah. He opened it and found the place where it read:
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is with me.
    He has anointed me
        to tell the Good News to the poor.
    He has sent me[c]
        to announce forgiveness to the prisoners of sin
            and the restoring of sight to the blind,
        to forgive those who have been shattered by sin,
19 to announce the year of the Lord’s favor.”
20 Yeshua closed the book, gave it back to the attendant, and sat down. Everyone in the synagogue watched him closely.
21 Then he said to them, “This passage came true today when you heard me read it.”

Yeshua read from Isaiah 61 and said: “This passage came true today when you heard me read it.”


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